Graced to Lead

S2/E5: Wrestling with Faith While Leading Others with Dr. Jenny Carter

• Belinda Gaston

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Ever stood strong for everyone else while secretly questioning everything? In this soul-stirring episode, Dr. Jenny Carter—professor, researcher, and minister with over 20 years studying spiritual formation—shares her journey through spiritual struggle and how it shaped her understanding of authentic faith and leadership.

Dr. Carter vulnerably recounts a moment when her honest questions about faith were met with judgment: "I used to respect you, and now I'm not even sure you're a Christian." This painful interaction highlights the unspoken pressure leaders face to project certainty while privately wrestling with doubt. With remarkable candor, she explains how questioning isn't weakness but often a necessary bridge from "dependent faith" (adopting beliefs from authority figures) to "interdependent faith" (owning personal beliefs while maintaining healthy community).

The conversation offers profound insights for high-capacity leaders navigating spiritual struggles while guiding others. "If we repress what is real and keep soldiering on," Dr. Carter warns, "eventually it leaks out in ways damaging to ourselves and others." She unpacks how unprocessed spiritual questions manifest in leadership through burnout, unrealistic expectations, and the "shrapnel" of pain that wounds those around us.

Among the most liberating revelations: many spiritual struggles stem from expectations we place on ourselves that God never demanded. "Are you putting more expectations on yourself than God, the God of the universe, is placing on you?" Dr. Carter provides practical wisdom for the journey—examining expectations, looking for "glimmers" of God's goodness amid difficulty, and finding trusted confidants who can handle your authentic questions.

Whether you're questioning your faith while leading others or simply seeking a more honest spirituality, this conversation offers permission to be human and practical pathways through wilderness seasons. As Dr. Carter beautifully reminds us: suffering doesn't mean you're cursed—it means you're human. And it's often through these struggles that we experience God's character most profoundly.

Ready to find freedom in the questioning? Listen now and discover how spiritual struggle might actually strengthen your leadership rather than diminish it.

Mentioned During This Episode:

  • Bible Verses:
    • Psalm 23
    • 2 Corinthians 3:4–6
    • 2 Corinthians 12:9
    • Psalm 27:13 (NASB) 
  • Strong Like Water by Aundi Kolber (especially Chapter 6 and the concept of “glimmers” from Deb Dana)
  • Reaching for an Invisible God by Phillip Yancey

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Belinda Gaston:

If you've ever doubted God while showing up strong for everyone else, if you've wrestled with questions about your faith but felt like you had to keep going anyway, listen, you are in the right place. In this episode of the Graced to Lead podcast, we're talking with Dr Jenny Carter. She's a leader, researcher and minister. She's the professor of ministerial calling at Evangel University and assistant academic director at the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary. She spent more than 20 years studying and teaching spiritual formation. Listen, this conversation is honest, it's freeing and I believe it really is the kind of conversation that we don't talk enough about. We don't talk about how spiritual struggle shows up in our lives, especially as leaders, and what to do with it. So let's talk about the faith behind the leadership. Ready, let's get into it. All right? Welcome to the Graced to Lead podcast.

Belinda Gaston:

I am Belinda Gaston, your host, and we are in season two. Y'all, and it has been an amazing season so far. Today is no different than the rest of our interviews. We have an amazing guest with us. We have Dr Jenny Carter in the room.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

I'm really glad to be here. So thank you for the invitation, thank you for the opportunity to share my story and hopefully some of the things that the Lord has walked me through can be an encouragement to others.

Belinda Gaston:

Thank you, we're excited to have you. I want to start with you sharing a bit about your work and what led you to focus on spiritual formation and faith through trials.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

Sure. So I currently work at the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary. I am a professor, but a research professor looking at calling in the life of the minister over the lifetime. But I have worked in higher education for 22 years and gotten to focus on spiritual formation for a good chunk of that time and that's honestly been a driving force for me and a passion for me. But kind of where did I get started in all of this?

Dr. Jenny Carter:

I went to college, went to a Christian college, was a ministry major and was really excited about discipleship and wanting to understand what does it mean first for me to be an authentic follower of Jesus, to have a real, deep, true faith, and what does it like to create that for others? And so, as a idealistic 20 something, went to college and thought I would land on staff at a church, which would have been a great job, would have been a great way to live out calling. I thought I would be writing discipleship curriculum and encouraging people to lead and serve, creating spaces for that to happen, for people to just grow in their faith. Through just the way that the Lord happened to lead me, it seems my calling and my space to often work was not going to be in a church, but actually within higher education, and so I thought I would go to graduate school. I had a couple of different ideas, just love learning, and ended up doing a master's degree in higher education and in one of my classes called vocational formation was sitting in like kind of a semi-circle like they like that can happen in some of those smaller classes really conversation-based, and the professor who was a campus pastor at Bethel University in the Twin Cities area. She was just going through spiritual formation, development theory and what that looks like, the way people develop. It was really helpful to understand in different seasons of life, in different seasons of life, in different phases of life, what can happen spiritually in terms of the lives of people.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

She was starting to unpack some things for me and, I remember, for other students and it was one of those moments where I was forever changed by sitting in that room because as an undergrad I went to college and thought I'm going to learn all about God, I'm going to learn all about scripture, I'm going to learn all these things, which I did, and I thought I would come out of college with this really solid faith and what I came out of college with, I definitely knew more about the Lord. But I had a lot of questions and I went to college and thought I'm just going to be more solid than I am now and was leaving college wasn't sure what my next step was, wasn't sure where I was going to land. A couple of years later I landed in grad school and was really thankful for that. But I remember another student looking at me in class one day and was just talking about I have questions about why the church looks like it does and if the Bible says this, why do people live like this? And was really unpacking.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

Some of my experiences growing up in the church with unhealthy leaders and just kind of it came to a head at like 21, 22. And I said you know, I questioned some of these things. I never gave up on Jesus, I never gave up on faith, which sometimes that is part of people's stories and I want to give them space for that if they kind of ask those deep questions. And I remember her looking at me and saying I used to respect you and now I'm not even sure you're a Christian. And to be honest, belinda, it gutted me. It gutted me so hard because I was like, oh wow, I was vulnerable and I was transparent. And now she's like you're not good enough to be part of the crew anymore. And I was transparent and now she's like you're not good enough to be part of the crew anymore. And I don't know that that was her intention, like I say that like in jest, to show you my vulnerability in that moment. This is not to slam her.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

So when I'm in that grad class a couple years later, the campus pastor from Bethel, one of the campus pastors, and she's unpacking all this and she talks about as young adults, what you'll see is they as teenagers we can often have dependent faith, faith that we kind of take on from parents, pastors, leaders, coaches, and we just sort of assume our faith from others. It doesn't mean we don't have our own thoughts and all that, and in some ways that's really good. I understand that now as a parent, but we take that on. And then as you move into young adulthood you kind of go to independent faith where you kind of the pendulum swings to the other side and it becomes very much your own. But in that process you can question a lot of things and the healthy place to land is independent faith where you have a healthy balance of your own individualized faith in the Lord but you also have a healthy balance of community.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

It's totally normal to ask questions. It ended up impacting my master's thesis. It impacted my dissertation when I got my doctorate which are both in higher education is to talk about spiritual struggle First off is just a normal part of life and it's one of those things where I look back now and like we can see it in scripture, we can see it in great Christian leaders. I continue to learn about different people who ask questions and it doesn't mean that they're bad, it's actually really really healthy. I would say some of it is learning, asking those questions in the right spaces.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

We want to be authentic as leaders but sometimes you know sharing we're not going to share all that necessary from the platforms that we're standing on, but I've wanted to create spaces for people to say you know, this just doesn't make sense or this was hard, and to come alongside and say, yeah, me too, I've been there or I maybe had something, maybe a different set of questions, different set of circumstances. But to normalize, there are times when doubt is a part of the process. A book that was really impactful for me is Reaching for an Invisible God by Philip Yancey. It was like somebody wrote a whole book where it was like, hey, jenny, what you've been asking and what you've experienced is absolutely, 100% part of the journey, and that's propelling me, 20 some years later, to say that, especially for women, god's not asking you to do something that you may be asking of yourself to perform at a level, or to not ever have questions or anything.

Belinda Gaston:

Thank you for your transparency in sharing this, because I think this is something we don't talk about. We have questions sometimes as we walk out our faith or we go through our faith journeys, but it's almost as if there is a penalty or punishment, as you've kind of described in your interaction for questioning it's you lose respect or how dare you question God, and I love that you've said and shared that it's okay to have questions, so thank you for sharing that. I also really like that you've described this walk from dependent faith to independent faith and you talked about it in this in the kind of age range of the. You know the 20 something year old who's kind of moving out of their parents home into a more independent space and really thinking more and doing more on their own and doing more on their own. But I've met women in leadership who have been much older than that, that still have a dependent faith, and so I do appreciate that process.

Belinda Gaston:

We're going to tie this into leadership in a minute, but I really want you to understand what this kind of spiritual struggle looks like first and understand what that is. So I'd like to talk a little bit more about this movement from dependent faith to independent faith. Can you maybe give some characteristics of someone who has a dependent faith say maybe their parents' faith or kind of the tenants that they kind of grew up with, versus someone who has independent faith?

Dr. Jenny Carter:

Sure. So one thing I feel like that is, I'm going back to that classroom experience it was June of 2003, is when she unpacked it. She said if you never move from having a completely dependent faith and I will say in my story I've probably landed pretty similar not the exact same spaces, but pretty similar to the faith I grew up with it wasn't it needed to be tested. But if you're someone who just lives in dependent faith, you're just going to keep assuming the worldview of the people that you're around. And so there's a book. It was published, I think it was like in the seventies. It's a little book by a man named John Westerhoff Will Our Children have Faith? And so he is talking about the way that we do spiritual formation in our churches. Are we doing it where we just want people to become like us to an almost unhealthy extent, where they're not going to be able to own it? They're not going to have their own identity, their own honestly, let's just be honest relationship with the Lord. And what does it look like? Am I hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit? Am I hearing the voice of others? There's godly counselors that are so, so important. But am I doing this to please the Lord, or am I doing this to please other people? And we know the Apostle Paul kind of warns us against that in the book of Galatians as he's talking to those people, that if we're constantly trying to please others, but if we're constantly trying to please others and not ultimately please the Lord, then we're really kind of giving up on salvation, because that just turns into a form of legalism. And so I think with everything there's good parameters. But what does it look like? These are questions I'm still asking myself, like I said, decades later. And that's where you allow the Holy Spirit to, in the quiet, just speak to us and say am I looking to what others have told me or am I the one studying scripture? Am I looking through what others have told me or am I the one studying scripture? Am I the one listening for your voice or am I just running to someone else in this dependent model where, yes, community has a place? But am I not allowing myself to just wrestle alone with the Lord?

Dr. Jenny Carter:

A spiritual struggle can take on different forms. Self to just wrestle alone with the Lord, a spiritual struggle can take on different forms. Spiritual struggle can be something that is connected with, maybe some sort of event where there's some sort of big stressor. So you'd have a health crisis completely unexpectedly. That might cause some spiritual struggle. You could have a bad experience with church and experience church hurt, which most of us probably have, let's be honest, because there are broken people running our churches and running our organizations. There are so many things that we can.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

Just we're kind of told to like White-knuckle the situation just really dig in and we want to be strong, but we also don't process through what the pain is, what the things are that are challenging, how pieces come together, and so it could also be something personal. That's in me. Am I lacking motivation? Am I just feel like I'm not hearing the Lord? Am I? I just feel like I'm not hearing the Lord? But within that, like, I think we have to, like I said, normalize it and then ask ourselves good questions, to pause.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

And I used to live, I used to live in Florida. Even I lived in central Florida, so I wasn't right next to either of the coast. But just I would say, can you get away? And get away, it could be in your car. I would say, for me it would be a bottle, you know, is there a body of water and just ask questions and then let the Holy Spirit do his work, and I think this is an ongoing journey for us.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

But am I allowing myself to really rest on that rock solid foundation that is him, or am I looking to others for my worth? And so I think it kind of, is it? Some of these things can kind of unravel where am I, where am I getting my worth from? Where am I getting my security from, or getting my sense of safety from, as my strength, as my security, as my worth, or am I allowing those things? Am I asking from the people around me too much, where I'm relying on them in an unhealthy way that it's almost can become an idol, and so any good thing can become an idol. But in that, I think the Lord wants to meet us when we have those hard questions, and he's not mad. We can want to say, and it says our prayers. But when we look at the book of Psalms, there's a lot of lament, there's a lot of David saying, hey, this doesn't make sense, this is injustice.

Belinda Gaston:

Hey, this is not what I signed up for.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

And don't run away from those feelings. But I think when we're leaning into that dependent faith, we're trying to do something more to perform, to get approval. I think that's what can evolve in over time. Like I said, there's a season where that's good, there's a season where that is helpful, that gets us started, but that's not meant to sustain us with our whole journey in life. I hope that answers your question.

Belinda Gaston:

It does.

Belinda Gaston:

It's so timely because I often think that this struggle that we have spiritually, as you said, it can be life events, it can be something that happens, but particularly where we are right now in the world, where it seems as if what we have been used to and government and the economy and even in our educational spaces has been it's almost been shaken a little, it's like shaken and things aren't the way they used to be.

Belinda Gaston:

I can see how many people are having these feelings of what's weird about my faith and struggling spiritually, and so the reason I wanted to have you on this show, jenny, is because for leaders it's real for everyone. But for leaders I think it's especially difficult because not only are you dealing with your own spiritual struggles, but you are responsible for leading other people who also may be dealing with their spiritual struggles, even in corporate spaces. So I think that's why I was so excited about this conversation. So you gave some great resources and for our listeners we will put the references that Dr Jenny is mentioning in this conversation. We'll put that in the show notes for you. You've already talked about why we should acknowledge these struggles.

Belinda Gaston:

And so I want to talk a little bit about the impact on our leadership for the women who are listening to this show and I found out a couple of days ago that some men are listening to this shows of your men. Thank you for listening. We welcome you too. But for the women who are in leadership positions, whether they're leading in corporate spaces or like they're entrepreneurs or they're leading in ministries or organizations, and they may be dealing with spiritual struggle, how?

Belinda Gaston:

does it show up for these people, especially if they are high capacity leaders? How does it tend to show up in leaders?

Dr. Jenny Carter:

I think it can show up in a variety of ways. I think one of the questions we have to continually process through is am I living a realistic version of myself or am I striving to be this ideal version of myself? And ideal, I think, sometimes can be helpful, because if you're a leader, you're probably a high achiever. You probably are in that position because the Lord gave you that opportunity to be there and because the way that he's wired you and the way that he's gifted you but people recognize something in you and you can accomplish things, and so you have past successes that have brought you to that place, to that role, to that title, to that, honestly, that sphere of influence. But in that we can be in a space where we're always, always producing, and we have to make sure that there is health inside of us. And that is a continual, ongoing journey of working through our brokenness, partnering, like allowing the Holy Spirit to do the work that he wants to do in us. And so I think what can happen is that there are things that weren't we didn't realize were impacting the way that we lead honestly, the way that we live, and as we start to go through some sort of spiritual struggle which could be initiated by a crisis. It could be not, but there are things in our story that maybe we haven't dealt with, that we didn't know were problems, and that we got to start to deal with them. And so as we we move into new spaces, we move into new things, as we walk in through different things, we realize that maybe there were some. You might walk through a big trauma. We would say some of our friends in the psychology space and the counseling space and the therapy space would say big T, but there might be a big T trauma, but there can also be a lot of little T traumas say big T, but there might be a big T trauma, but there can also be a lot of little T traumas. And so as we walk through those things, we realize like, oh, that thing, that now that I'm here, now that I am in a space that's more vulnerable, that I am maybe experiencing some sort of questions.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

And the questioning is what actually leads us to independent faith. The questioning because we start asking like do I believe that? So-and-so believes it, but do I believe it? What is true of God? But if we can, if we realize that maybe we have a thousand paper cuts. It may not be this big gaping wound, but there might be a thousand paper cuts on our hands. You know what that's like when you have a paper cut and then you use hands. It's awful and it kind of yes, it's awful, it's awful, and so both of those can bring it out, and it can be, you know, I had some coping skills or I had some behaviors or I had some things that maybe served me really well to get through some sort of not great experience in my life. But it's not going to continue to serve me well and the Lord's going to work that out in you. And so a thing that Ruth Haley Barton said that has been impacting me and helping me process through things that I didn't know were still impacting me from when I was a teenager and in my forties.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

But when we repress what is real in our lives and just keep soldering on, we get weary from holding it all in and eventually it leaks out in ways that are damaging to ourselves and to others. On the other hand, the experience of God, unconditional love and presence during those solitary times when we are not doing anything for God, is our greatest human need, and we are called to do things for the kingdom and it's like a strength and a weakness, it's like the good and the bad. There's like kind of both sides of the coin. So we're doing things for the kingdom, but when it becomes all about that there and we can kind of get a little caught up in ourselves, then we can forget that we are finite, that we are humans, that he has created us, that he has called us, but we can kind of get kind of on this island of our aloneness. And that's where we remember that we need God's presence. That is actually already there with us. The unconditional love is already there. The space to ask questions is already there. God invites our questions.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

I used to shun questions because I was like those are for weak people and that's not me and I don't want to be weak. Well, the Lord totally allows us to ask questions. But where can I find the space to do that? And that's where I think the independent faith comes in. We find the people that we can trust. It can be a mentor. It might need to be a therapist. It could be a leadership coach. It could be a good friend.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

I have two friends. I call them my junk friends because I love them yearly and they will take me junk. They will take me on my bad days, they'll take me when I want to yell or when things aren't making sense or whatever. But I trust them with my vulnerability and so we have to have those safe spaces and so when we're walking through things and we have questions and we're still pouring out and leading others and those are the people that can come alongside us and we can be real with maybe that we can't necessarily be from the platform, but if I don't deal with my stuff, it's going to come out.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

I wish I remember who I heard say this. But it's like we all have shrapnel that we kind of put out in the spaces that we're in, but you need to be careful what that shrapnel looks like. And so if you're not walking through and dealing with those things with the Holy Spirit and in the right spaces, it's going to come out in other areas. That's where we need to ground our self-awareness. We all have those blind spots, but if, whatever that looks like for you and how you can be the best version of who God has created you to be, you have to find those tools to help you or it is going to come out in ways that are unhealthy and, honestly, we're going to have to apologize for things that we don't want to necessarily have to apologize for.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

And so I'm kind of thinking right now in second Corinthians, chapter three, where the apostle Paul talks about our work as ministers.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

So whether you're a minister in the pulpit, you're a minister in the marketplace, you're a minister in the classroom, in the boardroom, wherever that looks like, we can just say the confidence that we have this is coming from verse four that we have with the Lord is through the work of Jesus. Not that we are sufficient to claim anything from ourselves, but our sufficiency has come from God, who has made us sufficient to be ministers of the new covenant. Your sufficiency comes from him. He's the one that's gifted you, he's the one that's given you those spaces, he's the one that's given you those opportunities. And so I look at that passage of scripture and just kind of remind myself of that. But continuing to grow and look for the opportunities of what means to be healthy, what does it mean to be whole? What does it mean to be a disciple of Jesus, is allowing the opportunities for those things to be worked through and just recognize as much as spiritual struggle is normal, so is my need to continue to grow and let the Holy Spirit work things out in me.

Belinda Gaston:

Wow, dr Cheney, you said a lot so for our listeners. I know that many of you who are leading have been in this space, particularly now, where you have had some questions in your faith because of an event, whether it's a large event or a small event, something that's happening right now or something that happened in your past that's coming back and you're trying to figure out. Well, why am I responding that way? And what I hear Dr Jenny saying is, if you don't address this thing now, if you don't give yourself that time and space to question, to seek God, for whatever it is that you need, that it will manifest itself through your leadership in ways that you may not have intended.

Belinda Gaston:

And that comment about having to apologize we as leaders, we want to be willing to say we're wrong, but do you want to place yourself in a position where you have to consistently apologize because you're not dealing with the struggle that you're having? You're not even acknowledging the struggle that you're having spiritually. I want that to sit for a second for our listeners, perhaps listeners the frustration you're experiencing as leaders is tied to some small or large spiritual struggle that you want to acknowledge, mm-hmm. So I love that and I also, dr Carter appreciate. I keep calling you Dr Carter, dr Janie, dr Carter, I really like Dr Janie some moments. I like Dr Carter some moments. Dr Janie is perfect.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

It's ironic I have the credential, but I'm really just Janie, especially in this space. If we were in the same room, I would imagine big cups of coffee that we would be sharing and talking. Yes.

Belinda Gaston:

Yes. So for our listeners, I want you to tell me also when you hear this if you like, dr Jenny or Dr Carter, we're going to have a little poll there. But listen, jenny, I appreciate that you gave people permission to ask questions. I think that sometimes as leaders, even as believers, we forget that we are human right. There's this expectation that in your leading in this space, you have to be a certain way, and so I appreciate that and I appreciate the quote that you gave us.

Belinda Gaston:

And so we've talked about what spiritual struggle looks like. We've talked about going from a dependent faith to independent faith. We've talked about how these spiritual struggles impact our leadership, and by now I imagine our listeners are like wow, I mean, this is kind of a heavy conversation necessary. So I'd like to start talking about some practical advice and some encouragement for the woman who's listening right now, who may have just had an aha moment. They may have just heard something and said they're like, oh, my goodness, I'm in the middle of a spiritual struggle and that's why I feel spiritually depleted or even weary in my leadership decisions and the things that I have to do.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

Yet I still am responsible for leading these things, for doing this program for providing strategy for this organization you putting more expectations on yourself than God, the God of the universe, is placing on you, because I think at times well, let me take a step back. I think the root of a lot of spiritual struggle whether it be the way life circumstances have worked out, the way things may like an unexpected relationship battle, whether it be, maybe, especially with other believers, unexpected relationship battle, whether it be, maybe, especially with other believers those are her heart it all comes back to unmet expectations. We have unwritten, unarticulated, subconscious expectations of the way things are supposed to be, and I don't mean that to be down in the dumps, but just like, like or pull us into it, like you were saying, like a really pessimistic space, like I just want to create space and acknowledge, like this is the holistic part of what we're living through. But what were my expectations and how they not lived out? I think those are great questions that we can ask ourselves and allow the Holy Spirit to just kind of unravel it. And then the character of God is always true. The character of God is always true. The challenge that I have to say is what were my expectations of God? And it's probably the expectations that have failed me, not the Lord and people have failed us. People have hurt us, life has failed us. Life has hurt us. It could be an attack of the enemy, you know what I mean. There could be a variety of things and what that is, but are we expecting some sort of level of performance that is just not at all what God is asking of us. And if you can process through that and let yourself just answer that question, that will help you develop a little bit more realistic expectations of yourself, because you may be demanding something that God is not asking for you.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

In Psalm, chapter 16, the psalmist says the boundary lines have fallen for me in pleasant places. The psalmist is talking about the land allotments in Israel. But for me I was broke down in tears with a leadership coach almost three years ago now because it was so much of the pressure that I was feeling was from expectations that I had set up on myself that were just unrealistic. So if maybe the unrealistic expectation you have yourself is you should never have any questions, if you're a good leader, you know what I mean Like that is not realistic and you eventually will crash. You eventually will crash. And the psychology spaces who will talk about glimmers? So we know about triggers, we know what triggers are, but what are glimmers?

Dr. Jenny Carter:

Where do you see the goodness of God and kind of make note of that in the midst of all of it, because so much of what we walk through as believers is both and it is. We have joy and sadness simultaneously. We have good, we see the promises of God fulfilled, and there is heartache, there is cancer, there is just whatever. There is injustice, and now you have this other thing and I would just sit there and sit in the pain of it. Injustice, and now you had this other thing and I would just sit there and sit in the pain of it, sit in the sorrow of it. But the thing about the traffic light is, I acknowledged the grief but I didn't perseverate on it because of traffic. I had to start driving when the light changed to red or I'd get honked at. But it had almost become this spiritual practice for me where I grieved it, I prayed through it, but I had to keep moving on.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

And so walk through those expectations. Acknowledge it, but allow yourself to experience the good, to see the good. A lot of what we live through, honestly, until the end of Revelation, is man in the wilderness, like we can be in these wilderness spaces. I'm not saying the promised land is maybe never coming. You can kind of use that, some of the Old Testament ideas there, but you're going to have both and there will be provision in the wilderness. And if you're in a space that feels like that, allow yourself to just kind of crack open your heart, let that Holy Spirit, let the oil of the Holy Spirit go in and say, okay, lord, can I also see your provision? Can I also see where the goodness and mercy have followed me all the days of my life and that I am still dwelling in your house in the midst of all of it? I think also I would allow yourself to just look at scripture through the lens of read the whole story.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

Because they had struggle, they had things that didn't work out. The apostle Paul, you know, three times I asked the Lord to take this thing from me and he said nope, my grace is sufficient for you. Some of the ideas in that particular passage of scripture is talk about the grace and the strength of the Lord. But if you look in the original language is it grows into completion, like it comes into its fullness in the midst of the trial and the midst of the struggle. But that's also him saying I asked God for this and he told me something else, and so there'd be grace there, but he still asked it. He still asked for the better answer. He still asked for the better thing, what seemed like the better thing for him. And so, I think, still ask him, still make those requests, still make those requests of the Lord, like for rescue, for deliverance, for all those things, but know that he has not abandoned you in the process, when the answer doesn't look like what you thought it should be.

Belinda Gaston:

That is very practical advice. You asked us to examine our expectations, and that one is a huge one. You could have dropped the mic right there, jenny, with just that one, because that's one that I think many of us are walking through every day. We have to tell ourselves, like, girl, manage your own expectations. Or how about we reject the expectations of others? That's not realistic. Or what expectations have we put on God? I think that's a great question.

Belinda Gaston:

And then you talked about looking for the glimpses, which I've not even heard before. So I love this idea of looking for those glimpses, those moments where the promises of God have happened in your life, and it's daily. I think if we're intentional about looking for the glimpses, you'll find it. I remember my grandmother told me a long time ago be careful what you seek, you'll find it. I remember my grandmother told me a long time ago be careful what you seek, because you'll find it. And it never made sense to me. It never made sense.

Belinda Gaston:

I was like, okay, why are you talking? I used to call my grandmother pumpkin Pumpkin. This isn't making sense, but now that I'm older I get it. What you are seeking, you will find. And so if we are intentional about seeking the glimpses. We'll find the glimpses, will find the glimpses. I love that. And then the last thing, the last tip that you shared was reading the full story in the Bible. I know it's easy for us to take one verse and you know, as again referencing my grandma, she's a big part, she was a big part of my life, jenny, so I referenced her a lot.

Belinda Gaston:

But taking that one scripture and making it preach and it's like, well, what about what happened before and what happened after? And let's look at the whole story here Abraham was like me, or Sarah was like me, or finding yourself in the scripture is really important. So I think those are three really practical tips. I'd love for you, if you're comfortable, before we go, to share maybe a personal story or an example of a time when you had to lead while wrestling with God or your own faith questions, or even the story of someone you know that has had to do that. I'd love for you to share that and how they handled the situation or how you handled the situation.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

I have been in situations where I'm driven for excellence. One thing my husband will tell me often is he's very, very wise. Sometimes I get mad at him because he's wise, because I don't like what he's saying, even though he's right. But your biggest strength is also your weakness, and so I continually want to understand the giftings that God has given me. In my drive for excellence can maybe pull myself or others, it can actually become a weakness, because I can be driven for excellence so much that it's not healthy and it's not submitted honestly to the Lordship of Jesus.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

But I have been in situations where I was just I didn't like the circumstances around me in terms of the organizations. I was critical and I was. It was one of those. I'm going to shake my fist at God and say you know, if I was in charge, I would do this better, not like oh, I need to be above this leader. I meant just the way that the whole environment was being played out and what I had to do is I had a couple opportunities to shift. Basically, I could have stepped out of a current role and stepped into a new role.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

It's funny as I'm talking about a specific situation, but that probably describes three different times in my life. I had to trust the Lord and not take matters into my own hands in terms of the Lord's timing. And a phrase that I started asking myself was am I Ishmael-ing this? So I took the idea of Ishmael from the old Testament and was not him as a as a person, but Abraham and Sarah had a promise from the Lord, and then Abraham took matters into his own hands, which most of us do Like, let's just be honest, especially as a leader but we can take that and run with that and kind of go on our own sidelines. And so what I had to start asking myself is where am I trying to Ishmael this? Where am I trying to? This is what I believe the kingdom of God should look like, and where am I trying to take matters into my own hands?

Dr. Jenny Carter:

And a good friend of mine, who's also a leadership coach, she said to me Jenny, I love how you're asking yourself this question, but what does it mean to Isaac this? Jenny, I love how you're asking yourself this question, but what does it mean to Isaac this? And I hear a start of flowing. And I said that means to surrender, that means to put my expectations back on the altar and let God write the story. And I have had at times where I've had the Lord say, you are getting ahead of me because you were trying to write this and you're not letting things play out, and for me it was pausing, wrestling through my expectations, the way I thought this should be lived out, and letting God be in control, which he already is.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

The things that kind of coach me through that are conversations with those two dear friends and calling them, texting them, being really, really honest with them, having trusted advisors, having trusted people in that bit like journaling my heart out. Whatever is the way that you process through things is going to be how you process things through the Lord. I read and write. I have notebooks in front of me with certain pens, certain things like that. Other people, they're going to go for a run, other people are going to maybe just drive around, whatever. That is where you get alone with the Lord and you process through all of that and what I had to do is I had to wait. I had to wait and let the Lord do. And some of it, belinda, it makes sense now on what he was doing, what I didn't know and where I was being a cocky jerk and some of it I still don't understand. I still don't know why did it have to play out like this, why did the timing work out? And I'm just trusting the Lord knows what he was doing. But I think I had to keep my gifts in check and not get, like I said, too cocky of like, if you want someone who can come up with a strategic vision, objectives, goals and a timeline, and get once and can execute, like I'm your girl, like let's build a team. And sometimes it's like well, maybe I'm living that out a little bit too strong, if that makes sense. And so that's kind of been this reoccurring theme.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

As we talk through it, I think about Moses and so I kind of wonder, before we get to the burning books in the desert, he was raised in Pharaoh's house. I kind of wonder what was that like? Because they knew he knew he was raised in Pharaoh's house. I kind of wonder what was that like? Cause they knew he knew he was a Hebrew, but eventually he ends up running off to the desert. I'm like he probably knew his calling somehow was deliver.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

His people Like and some of this is Jenny's inflections on the situation but he ends up murdering that Egyptian and he understood his calling, but he didn't understand the maturity of it and he tried to depress into things before.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

It seemed like the Lord told him he could have stood up from the guy but like, where am I stepping into things? Where I am taking matters into my own hands? Where am I taking matters into my own hands before God has said now's the time for you to do it? And where I am overworking because I don't feel like God is working hard enough and I can see visions of like things coming into alignment, things the Lord has shown me. If there are things that need to be in place and you running too far ahead, girl, and I'm saying walk, and you're like no, we're going to sprint, and it's no, you need to walk. And that's when he gets to live out the fullness of the overarching thing that he's he's doing because it's his will and his kingdom come, not mine, and sometimes I just kind of want to be the one in charge. So I'm still learning that one.

Belinda Gaston:

Wow, there's so much again. I feel like I could talk to you all day, jenny. I mean, where am I overworking in the place that God is working things out? Where am I sprinting, where I should be walking? And I think this is a good place for us to kind of end, because leaders listen.

Belinda Gaston:

This whole conversation has pointed to a couple of truths here, a couple of simple things. One we are human and so we are going to have questions. We're going to have difficult days. We're going to have fatigue.

Belinda Gaston:

No matter what your title is, whether you're a CEO, vp or a business owner, a stay at home mom, no matter who you are as a human, you're going to have some moments where things get tough, and those moments may cause you to question some things in your faith. That's the first thing. The second thing that I hear Jenny saying God is in control and God has the ability to bring us through these moments if we allow him to, if we surrender these things to him and not try to work it out. And that's hard for leaders, because we're supposed to handle it right. And then the third thing that I noted in your conversation here, jenny, is that you keep talking about this pause about the time to reflect and leaders. It's okay for us to stop and pause, even to say I need a moment. The truth is, a good leader takes a pause. So I'd like to ask you, as we close, if you have any final thoughts that you'd like to share. Please do so. And then, two, let people know how they can connect with you.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

So I do a little bit of consulting in the higher education space, like one or two schools a year. I'll do it by word of mouth. If someone needs something whether it be on a specific project needs some expertise of someone who's worked in higher education for a few decades, or maybe some team building, some different things like that Just have someone come in and come alongside. Part of it is is just season of life. I have three daughters and so that's a lot of where I'm at. So the consulting thing is something I'll slowly kind of do and ramp up. My primary work right now is within the seminary role. I'm a social scientist in the seminary, which is really cool and really fun. So I get to take this passion I have for spiritual formation and understand what that looks like in pastors and missionaries and those who are credentialed ministers, and so it's a really cool job and a really cool thing that I got to really get to do. That's how I feel about it. But I think one kind of maybe final quote of idea that I'd like to leave you all with this comes from Ann Voskamp's book the Waymaker.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

Regardless of what Instagram or all the glossy ads are shilling, your suffering isn't something that is a unique anomaly. Suffering is a universal experience of all humanity. Suffering does not mean you're cursed. Suffering means you're human. The question isn't why is there suffering in my life? But why wouldn't there be suffering? Because such is life in a broken world. The question is what way will you bear this suffering? I didn't know it then and I am still learning now. Life is really hard because there is the reality of being alive. Life is hard in a thousand ways and what comes easiest to us is getting lost.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

And I will kind of end her quote with saying don't get lost in all of it. Find that God is actually everything that scripture says that he is. And some ways, and sometimes the way that we experience the character of him is we need him to show up. And if life was boring and flat and rosy, we wouldn't actually get to experience his character. I'm not saying, I'm not admonishing, when bad things happen, that those things are right, but in the midst of the pain, in the midst of struggle, in the midst of just questions, I believe that God will show up for you.

Dr. Jenny Carter:

Psalm 27,. That I would have despaired. I think the New American Standard says it best. I would have despaired unless I believed that I would see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living. And so it may take years, it may be hard, it may all those things that you're experiencing, but the goodness of the living God, I believe, will be faithful in your life and in your story. The goodness will be there in the midst of your questions. In the midst of all of that, I do think prayers will be answered. I do think that you will see goodness. I do think that we will see deliverance. It may not be the time or the way that we expect, but he's still going to be true to his character.

Belinda Gaston:

That is an excellent way to end this episode of the Graced to Lead podcast. Ginny, thank you so much for your transparency and for your practical advice on this subject. We appreciate you, thank you, I appreciate it, thank you and to our listeners, I appreciate you, as always, for listening to the Graced to Lead podcast. Remember, we're on every week. Episodes launch every Thursday, so you can find us on every podcast platform of choice Apple Podcasts, you can find us on Spotify, on Google, wherever you get your podcasts. And remember, you are indeed graced to lead Bye-bye.

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